Ep #14: Bonus Episode: Two Kids and a Career Podcast

episode summary

When Jill Devine from the Two Kids and a Career podcast reached out to have me as a guest, I immediately said yes.

In this episode, we explore the challenges of overcoming people-pleasing tendencies and empathetic overload, as well as the importance of taking responsibility for our thoughts and actions. From the difficulty of saying no to the potential positive outcomes from setting boundaries, we offer tips for managing the urge to take on other people's feelings and how to stay true to our authentic selves. Join us as we navigate the complexities of personal growth in this insightful and supportive conversation that's sure to leave you feeling empowered and ready to face life's challenges head-on.

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For the full show notes and transcript, head over here.

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CHAPTERS:

0:04 - Changing Others vs Changing Yourself

15:23 - Overcoming People-Pleasing and Empathetic Overload

24:13 - Taking Responsibility for Thoughts and Actions

 

listen to the episode:

 
 

  • Michelle: 0:04

    Hey, I'm Michelle Gauthier here and you're listening to the Overwhelmed Working Woman podcast. Hey friends, today I've got a bonus episode for you. This is an episode from a podcast called Two Kids in a Career, where I was interviewed by my now friend, Jill Devine, who's the podcast host. I've been on her podcast four times now. She is a lovely person and she talks about all kinds of things that affect women and careers. Today we are specifically talking about if we can change other people. I sent out a message on my weekly email list a while back and it was all about how to change another person. In the end, the answer was instead of trying to change the other person, change yourself. She wrote me back and said I feel really triggered by this. I want to have you on the podcast to talk about it. If that's a subject that you find interesting, then tune in and listen to this episode that I did on her podcast, Two Kids in a Career.

    Jill Devine: 1:05

    Welcome to this week's conversation. I am so giddy because I have a guest on who. it's so funny to me because I feel like it's just a natural connection that we have and we've never met in real life. I mean, i'm not okay with that, but I am okay with that. The only person that has been on this podcast for a fourth time last time you were the only person who has been on for three times and I believe he'll get that title. I am well-known as Michelle Gauthier to the podcast. Hi, friend, hello.

    Michelle: 1:46

    Thanks for having me. I feel so special to have the award of coming back four times. Thank you, i'm going to keep it up. I've been six and 10.

    Jill Devine: 1:54

    Yes, that's what you said on the third one. Okay, perfect, so we're going. Let me remind the listener, in case they have not been introduced to you, about the episodes that you have appeared on. The first one was episode 24, a Mom's Guide to a Calm Holiday Season. This is an episode that you can listen to every single holiday season. Even if you've heard it a million times, something will resonate. And then you ended up coming on for episode 25, tips on How to Bring More Calm to Your Life During a Pandemic. And what was really special for me personally on that is you ended what was technically season one of the podcast, and that was when I was on the radio. And then you know what happened and I started doing things from home. And so then you were yeah, you were the first guest to kick off that next season of me being in a different spot. And then I had you on again for episode 74, advice on Readjusting to Normal Life Post-COVID. Because at that point it was like, okay, we're pretty much, we're still in this pandemic, but we're pretty much coming out of it and we're going to do things. And so then I had you on for that, and I can just tell you that watching you and you watching me, and seeing the different things that have evolved and transformed for the both of us, it's really amazing, and I just love being able to stay connected with you because you have so many things to offer, and I will talk, obviously, about why I asked you to come on for a fourth time. But let's get caught up. You, at the last episode, episode 74, you were living in your sister's guest house, correct? Yes, that's right. So catch me up from there.

    Michelle: 3:59

    Yes, yes. So during COVID before it was COVID we just went to go visit my sister in South Carolina for spring break And when my kids' schools got canceled and her kids' schools got canceled, we just decided to stay And we did COVID together and at the time she luckily had a guest house Not, luckily, all of her guests canceled because of no one traveling. So my kids and I got to live there and that was my temporary office, so I would kick my kids out into the main house, see my clients during the day, and then my sister and I just sort of managed our children together. It was actually a really cool experience that I would not change for the world, but it was a little crazy. So since then, yeah, i feel like a lot has happened and also nothing has. At the same time, i mean, i'm back home, been back home in St Louis, everything's well with me and my kids and my business. I think one of the reasons why you and I are so connected is that we're both just following, doing things that we really love and, you know, trying to live our authentic lives, being who we're supposed to be, and I feel like that's what I just keep doing. In fact, i'm starting a podcast myself. It starts in just a couple of weeks here, so by the time this episode is out, it will be live too.

    Jill Devine: 5:14

    What's the name of it, and then, when it does launch, i will make sure to let everybody know.

    Michelle: 5:18

    Okay, awesome, it is called the Overwhelmed Working Woman. Yes, and the goal is to not be overwhelmed when you listen to the podcast. So what I'll be doing on there is first of all, i'm a live coach. I assume everybody probably knows that because I feel like I've been on here several times but I'm a live coach and I mostly help overwhelmed working women, often moms, and so the podcast will just be a summary of a tool or a strategy you can use so that, if you feel overwhelmed at the beginning of an episode, by the end you feel better.

    Jill Devine: 5:54

    That sounds amazing. So, yes, when you get that launched, let me know. I will make sure that we get it in the show notes and we make sure everybody knows about it. All right? so the reason why I wanted to have you on was and I said this to you you sent out an email to your followers and the subject line was how to change someone And I was like, oh, i can't click this fast enough, and I said that to you. I said this hit me hard And I looked through it and it's not what I expected, but it's kind of what I expected, and I don't want to take the words out of your mouth. So I would like for you to tell me how You got to this and why this is a top a topic and a talking point for you, because we have I mean, i know it's. Everything we've talked about is how we work on us in the situation that we're in, but this is This. This is a trigger for a lot of people. So let's start with how you got to this point.

    Michelle: 6:59

    Yeah, i just see a lot in my own life in every human's life, but specifically my clients lives that when they're feeling stressed and overwhelmed and frustrated, that a lot of times it comes from the way that other people are behaving and we have this big desire to change someone, and lots of times it's our spouse or our kids or our boss. You know, if this person did that, then I could be happy, and that's a really dangerous trap to fall into, because you can never change someone else never. So the reason why I wrote that note was just to remind everybody about that and then to give them something else to Focus on, because the thought of oh, you can never change anyone else, everyone's like yeah, yeah, that's fine, but I really want my husband to start picking up his own dirty socks or, you know, whatever the example is. So I wanted to do it in a more positive way, where you Talk and think about the things that you do love about that person, which just helps. You see that usually those things that you want to change are smaller.

    Jill Devine: 8:05

    You will say that you cannot change a person 100%, like hands down. That's yes. Person can change him or herself if they want, okay that's the difference and that's where I Wanted to happen to, because I Feel like there is tension when I hear you, you cannot change someone, and more of a. If someone has done you wrong or whatever, and somebody else says, oh well, that person's never going to change, why are you giving them a second chance, or why are you allowing them in your life, or why are you doing this, or why are you giving them a raise or whatever it may be? and I guess because I'm the type of person who likes to work on myself and wants to read all the books and do all the research that I feel like a statement of you can never change someone Isn't helpful. It kind, like I said, it brings up tension for me.

    Michelle: 9:13

    Yeah, yeah. Well, that makes sense, especially if you're a person who likes to work on changing yourself because you're like wait, does that mean I can't change, that? we just all come in this pre-made container and this is all we've got? and that is not true For me. In my job, i see evidence every single day that people totally can change, and I myself have completely changed from being someone who was very overwhelmed and stressed and had to be a Perfectionist and like pretend that everything you know, care a lot about what other people thought, and put together this Front that everything was okay. And now I have changed to be someone who's authentic and vulnerable and, you know, i tell the truth, even if it's uncomfortable, and so I've completely changed myself. So if I were in a relationship with someone and They would have said to me you really need to stop being a perfectionist, i would have been like okay, i'm not gonna do that unless I also want to. So it's not like you can't suggest to people that maybe they should change or say It would be really great if you could do this, that or the other thing, but they have to want to do it themselves, and so, in that case, continuing to pester someone to change when they don't want to change is just like banging your head against the wall. It's so such a better effort of your time to change. Work on changing yourself. What you said is your kind of intuition, anyway.

    Jill Devine: 10:44

    So, of course, like I have all the questions, when you said that you didn't think that you could change yourself, and you have, you've, you've changed from I like the people pleasing thing, or I think that was hitting me hard. I think that one of the things that you know my personality is that I'm just an empath And I I do try to please people and I do care what others think, but I also want to help others And it's just this weird, like I take on a lot of emotion And I'm noticing that more. As far as I know, i've always done it, but I don't think I realize how it can affect me, and then I have to remove myself from situations. Well, that's hard And I don't necessarily like it. I want to fix things, i want to do things, and so I guess that's where it it is hitting me is what, if I am thinking about this person, whomever that person may be, and how I want them to change, but you said it's about changing me, then it's, it's hard, like I don't, i don't understand, i don't even know where to begin.

    Michelle: 12:01

    So for me, i've got a daughter who's 12 and she's very headstrong and she likes to know what's expected of her as early as possible. So if she has jobs to do that day, or if we have something on the schedule, she really wants to know it ahead of time. And so one thing that I've tried to change about her, without consciously realizing I was doing it, is just to be like you need to relax, you have to be able to take things as they come, just chill out a little bit, and so what that does is a couple of things. I mean it's difficult as a parent, as you know, because there are. Of course, i do want her to learn to become more flexible, but if I just accepted who she was and instead of listing all the things, all the ways, that that's annoying and I focus instead on what do I already love about her? she's super reliable. She will definitely follow through on the schedule. If she says she's going to do something, she does it. She is very responsible, she does a great job with her schoolwork, so this quality about her really serves her in some ways. So what I'm changing there is my mindset around how she is And then, instead of suffering. I'm in gratitude. Does it still drive me crazy when I say, oh, it's your turn to empty the dishwasher And she's like you know, i want you to tell me an hour before I have to do it And I just have to say sometimes I know when I'm really trying to do that, but you still have just have to do it right now. But it's like a two minutes of annoyance instead of a constant. I wish she was a different way.

    Jill Devine: 13:44

    Okay, yeah, okay, okay. So then can I flip it in a way of, if there's someone who I know, some of my certain actions frustrate them, like I can't make them do the change and think positive thoughts of me, i mean, i could slip them your email. I don't know how that would go over, but so for I guess that's where I'm focused on now is how am I perceived? So if I am learning from you, michelle, to say no and to make sure that I know what fills my bucket and what makes me overwhelmed, and I know what is busy, but they don't quite get it, are you going to give me the advice that I'm just going to have to get past that And just that's just how it is, because, remember, i'm the person if I know you're upset with me and you're whatever it's eating me alive.

    Michelle: 14:46

    Yeah, yeah. So I think a few things to notice. One is that you have awareness of the fact that your nature is to be a people pleaser and to want to make sure that everyone feels okay and everyone's getting what they need, et cetera. And it's that just knowing that you're like that, because you said, as you started tuning into it, that you realized it affects your life a lot more than you had realized before. So a major change that you have already made is having awareness of how your own habits and behaviors are affecting your life. So great job on that. The next step would be to actually start making some of those changes. So if we take the example of you know when you're busy and you know when you've hit your limit whatever that limit is and you realize that it's going to be really uncomfortable to say no to someone And it would be more comfortable to you if they were like oh Jill, i noticed that you're getting really good at not being stressed out because you're saying no a lot. So if you want to say no to me, go ahead, right, mm-hmm, but the reality is they're probably not going to If they do. That sounds amazing. We can always hope for that, but like that's not going to happen. So the next step in your growth in that area is you can realize I would like to say no right now, but saying no is going to make me so uncomfortable that I'm going to say yes anyway. So I don't advocate saying yes when you want to say no. But in terms of, like, baby steps and changes, even having awareness, i want to say no but I'm saying yes And then following through on that and doing the thing and seeing how that feels and getting evidence for I wanted to say no but I said yes. And now here I am, like on a Sunday doing something that I don't want to do, when I wish I was home for my family. So next time I'm going to say no when I want to say no. So you practice that. The other thing it seems like your brain is suggesting is that when you change, it should feel good. When you make this change and you start saying no more and stop the people pleasing, get less and less with the people pleasing, you will feel uncomfortable. Do you hate that? Yeah, it wears off. I mean, i was just actually recording a video the other day for Instagram and I was talking about saying no, and one of the things I said in the video is saying no used to literally make me want to throw up, and now it has zero effect. If there's something that someone asked me to do and I say, oh my gosh, thank you so much for asking me I can't do that, or I don't want to do that, or that doesn't fit in my Whatever version of no I say, it gives me zero guilt, upsetness, nothing is just gone. So you'll get to that point eventually. But as you start to make the change, probably you even felt uncomfortable when you realized how much people pleasing was affecting your life even before you had done the change. But it's like, oh gosh, this is really having an effect on me. And when you start saying no, it will still feel uncomfortable, but less so and less so and less so. Until then, saying no when you want to say no just becomes a habit, and then it's not hard anymore.

    Jill Devine: 18:00

    Yes, that's difficult. That's really really truly difficult for me, and it's just because I don't want to let anybody down And I think that that's kind of where it comes from. It's not that I, i don't know, i'm just a doer too by.

    Michelle: 18:17

    Yep.

    Jill Devine: 18:18

    You know the way I'm wired and that's I've got to stop caring about what people think, but it's hard.

    Michelle: 18:27

    It is. It's really hard, and I think one thing that helps me is to remember that, just like you can never change someone, you can also never make them feel something. So when you say I don't want them to be disappointed in me, when you say no, that person has the ability to have a thought about you saying no. That will give them a certain feeling. So, yes, there's a chance they could have the thought and say, oh, i'm so disappointed in her that she's not going to do that, and then their feeling is disappointment. It could happen, but we don't really know, because they could also have the feeling of, okay, good, i really wanted to be free that afternoon too. I'm so glad and they feel relieved. You don't know and there's no way to control what other people think. A lot of times when my clients say, well, i'm afraid if I say no, they're not going to like me, i said maybe they already don't like you.

    Jill Devine: 19:21

    Oh yeah.

    Michelle: 19:24

    No one likes that, but it's true. Maybe they already don't like you. Maybe they'll like you less if you say no. Maybe they'll like you more if you say no. Maybe you're already their best friend and they don't care what you say. either way, we don't know. Even if you ask someone, you don't know.

    Jill Devine: 19:43

    Is it people like me, based on my personality and what you know, when we do think about those people and how they're feeling. Is there a way to combat that and not take on other feelings? I know, when I walk into a room and somebody that I know pretty well walks into the room and you could just tell, oh, there's something going on. Whatever it may be, whether it's related to me or not, you just know something's going on and some people can walk away and be like I don't know what's going on with this person, hope everything works out. And then there's people like me who's like I don't know what to do. should I intervene? should I? how does that come into all of this? Because if I am supposed to not think about that person, does that make sense? Am? I already that correctly Okay.

    Michelle: 20:42

    Yes, yes, that makes sense. Well, first of all, I think it's important to acknowledge that you seem to be a person who's really high on the empath scale and you have a better connection than some people would with guessing how other people are feeling. So it's natural, and it's natural that you just wanna fix that too. So I wouldn't be mad at yourself, because I'm sure that that skill serves you in lots of ways in your life. There are just times when it doesn't, which is when you're thinking about something two hours later wondering if that person is mad at you. It's just not the best use of your time. Yes, Right, So just like the advice that when you wanna change someone else, you focus on yourself. I think the quickest way to get around that is to focus back on you and ask yourself, like in the example that you're giving let's say it's a family member and someone comes in and they're acting in a way that you feel like is different. go back to yourself and say do I like how I have been behaving to this person? Do I feel good about myself in the way that I'm spending my time? Because people, when we change people, get they get annoyed. They're used to us being a certain way. So if you're the person who's always the people pleaser, who always hosts everybody, no matter how busy you are, and you make all the food, and then one year you're like, okay, I'll host, but you bring this and you bring this and you bring this, and then you perceive that people are irritated when they get there, You have to look at yourself and say, do I like how I'm acting? Do I like that I'm sticking up for what I actually really wanna do and that I asked them to do this different thing? even if they seem like they're uncomfortable or annoyed with it, I know I'm in line with who I wanna be.

    Jill Devine: 22:30

    At some point if those individuals, whatever it may be, i mean it really has to come down onto the person to say, hey, i've gotta address this and talk to you about this. I mean, I guess that's the other factor is when you say you know people, i can't change anyone. People can change their habits and their thinking. I mean, i guess there gets a point too where it's like all right, do I send an email, do I send a text, do I make the phone call? Do I say, okay, this is what's been bothering me. And then does that put someone on the defensive, or, if you know that they're just not going to take it well, is that even worth it?

    Michelle: 23:18

    Yeah, I would say try to think about it in your mind, where you're acting, from what feels good to you, what you think not necessarily good, actually, it might feel uncomfortable. It feels in line, feels authentic. So if you think someone is upset with you or you're upset with them and you wanna reach out to them, try to pretend that there's a wall between you and your thoughts and them and their thoughts, because even in that example your brain naturally went towards how will they take my message? Will they be mad or will they be glad? And you just can't know. So you have to make sure from your side that you feel clean and clear about what you're doing. So I feel like there might be something off between us. I would love to talk to you about it if you're up for it. Do you wanna talk on the phone If that feels good to you, and then they write back in their mad or they write back in their happy. That's not your responsibility. So we have to think about each of us as responsible adults who are in charge of our own feelings and our own actions.

    Jill Devine: 24:21

    Here's what's so confusing for me is that, i mean, i understand every single person is different. We all have different personalities. We are unique in our thoughts and our ways, and it's hard when some people just might be listening and they're like gosh, what is she talking about? I don't feel that way, i don't care about what other people think and I just do my thing. And then there's people that are like me or there's people that are in between, and that's what's hard is when you have Especially people that are like me when it comes to controlling our thoughts, our actions, when we have been so designed around what other people think and say and do, and I think that that's just really the hard part. It's one thing that I can work with you on myself and maybe the things that are happening within my household or within my control, but then when I start thinking about the outside factors the outside influences, the outside decisions that's when it gets really cloudy in my head.

    Michelle: 25:37

    Yeah, something good to do in that situation, especially when it reaches that For me in my brain that feels like a spinning or I don't know, when it just gets overwhelming, like when you think of all the things out there that could affect it, i just get out a piece of paper and on one side, right in my control and on the other side right out of my control. So if you do that in the example that we're talking about, what would be in the out of control?

    Jill Devine: 26:05

    Well, someone else's feelings.

    Michelle: 26:08

    Yeah, yeah, and someone else's decisions and someone else's actions and like the weather and where they work and how that affects what they're going to think. It's pretty much everything is in the out of control side, except for your own thoughts and your own actions.

    Jill Devine: 26:27

    Yeah, and that's where the change comes.

    Michelle: 26:31

    All right.

    Jill Devine: 26:32

    Well, I would love to, as we wrap things up, just make sure that we cover a little bit more about change and what other tips you have, And then I would love for you to explain to the listener that hasn't heard any of our past episodes what you can offer.

    Michelle: 26:52

    One more thing I want to say, just to sort of close this discussion, is that it's really helpful when you're able to focus on yourself and that you feel good about the way that you're thinking and the way that you're acting. And that doesn't mean you can't make mistakes, but part of feeling good about it is continuing to try to change and making mistakes to move more towards your most authentic self. And when you do that, oftentimes people don't like it And oftentimes it feels very uncomfortable. So I say that not to be negative, but just to be real with you, because if you want to make real change, you'll have to be somewhat uncomfortable. But another key is thinking, the thought I'm just going to let people be wrong about me if they're mad. So if you make a change like, for example, i'm going to say this really true, this is a true story. So I was definitely raised and I think gosh, i'd say most, the vast majority of women were raised to believe that what I want is always underneath what other people want, and it's okay for me to be happy as long as everybody else is also happy. And so I feel like in my particular family I was raised like that and there were generations like that. So this was a family thing, and when I started becoming a life coach and learning more about mental health and how to make yourself feel better. One of the things that my mom, who I'm really super close to, just couldn't get over was this put yourself first mentality, especially if you're a mom or whatever that you should always be putting everyone else before you. And she still thinks to this day that it's selfish. And so I'm not selfish. I'm really not, but I do take care of myself first. I'm a single mom, i have two kids and I have to put myself first and make sure that I feel good about how I'm spending my time and what I'm doing. And so I just have to tell myself I'm just going to let her be wrong about me. And she thinks it's selfish. That's her opinion. I don't. That's my opinion. We still love each other. We get along great, but I have to let her be wrong about me.

    Jill Devine: 28:59

    That's hard, i mean, it's hard for me to hear that, but you're right, you're right.

    Michelle: 29:08

    Yep, and it's. It's really hard if you don't believe yourself. So, for example, if I felt like I'm being selfish and she says I feel selfish, that's going to hurt. Yeah, if I know I'm not and she says I am, it's easier to just let her be wrong about me.

    Jill Devine: 29:25

    So what I'm hearing is that, in order for all these outside voices, this outside noise, to just be shushed, you have to change yourself.

    Michelle: 29:39

    Yeah, yeah, and it's okay. When I first started living in that way, it did feel a little selfish because it was very different than how I had been before that. So I just had to practice and practice being that person and practice believing that it was the best thing for me, and then start collecting evidence for how that was the best thing for me and all the people I love, for me to take care of myself first.

    Jill Devine: 30:04

    That was yeah, that's a good one right there like that definitely Wraps it all up. Okay, michelle, you have a new podcast coming. Talk about that again. Also, talk about how people can get a hold of you and what you can do.

    Michelle: 30:19

    Okay, so my podcast is called the overwhelmed working woman. What I will do is have a new episode every Monday morning. When I was at my peak of Overwhelm and working this crazy corporate job and had little kids, monday mornings, sundays and Mondays were just sort of terrible in my mind. So I'm gonna drop the episodes on Monday mornings, hoping that everyone can tune in and get a little small lesson, like we're talking about today, so that they can have a smoother, easier week than they would have had otherwise.

    Jill Devine: 30:51

    That's pretty amazing, because I'm already excited about that, like just that okay. That affirmation small, yes.

    Michelle: 31:01

    People like either driving to work or sitting at the you know their makeup Table putting their makeup on or drying their hair, whatever that they can listen to. That Also you mentioned that you. The reason why you asked me to be on was because you get my weekly email. So if you go to my website, which is Michelle, got there calm, and I'm sure the link will be in the show notes So I don't have to spell it but if you go there, you can subscribe to my weekly email. Jill can give you her opinion, but I try to make it something just like I'm talking about with the podcast, just something useful, a little tidbit you can take to make your day a little bit better 100% agree Okay and then, if you're interested in working with me, on my website there's a work with me tab. I do one-on-one coaching on zoom for my life coaching clients and I do a six month program. So we would work together every week for six months.

    Jill Devine: 31:55

    And again I will have all of that stuff, the good nuggets here at Jill, divine calm and as always, i mean I come away from our conversations where, even if it's just one Little change, it will equal big change And I feel like I have more tools in my toolbox because of you and just so thankful for our time together and the Knowledge and the advice that you give me and you give the listener. So thank you, michelle.

    Michelle: 32:27

    Yeah, thanks for having me. I always love talking to you and now, the next time, when you're getting ready to say no, when it feels uncomfortable, you can know that's exactly how it's supposed to feel and hear me whispering in your ear. It's okay for them to be wrong about you, michelle told me to Oh, michelle, thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you for listening to the overwhelm working woman podcast. If you want to learn more about my work, head over to my website at michellegauthier.com. See you next week.

 

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Bonus Episode, People Pleasing, ChangeMichelle Gauthier