Ep #43: Overcome Imposter Syndrome with Leigha May
episode summary
You've just gotten a promotion that you asked for. Hooray! Everything is awesome - until your brain suggests that you actually don't know what you're doing. You can't do it. You're a fraud. And soon everyone will find out.
Sound familiar? Welcome to the world of imposter syndrome.
My dear friend and fellow coach, Leigha May, joins me on this episode to talk about imposter syndrome and to give us some practical strategies on how to beat it. Our minds can sometimes amplify the challenges in front of us, but those are just thoughts, and we can always choose a new thought.
Featured on the Show
Leigha May Life Coaching
The Worklife Coach Podcast
30-Day Confidence Challenge
For the full show notes and transcript, head over here.
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CHAPTERS:
4:37 - The Tell-Tale Signs of Imposter Syndrome
6:18 - We're All Human
11:36 - Right-Size Your Language
listen to the episode:
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Michelle: 0:04
Hey, I'm Michelle Gauthier and you're listening to the Overwhelmed Working Woman podcast. I want to introduce you to my friend, Leigha May. I will tell you guys, she is more than just a colleague. She is one of my besties. We lucked out when we first became life coaches. We were in the same training class and at that time my last name started with an L and hers still starts with an M. So we got put into the same small group and it was like one of the luckiest things that ever happened to me. So we have seen each other through six years - at least! - yeah, yeah, six years of friendship, life coach training, starting our own businesses, and then all of the things that life had to offer us, good and bad. So she is my dear friend. So, Leigha, say hi, tell us about you.
Leigha: 0:53
Hello everyone, I'm so delighted to be here. Michelle is one of my favorite humans and coaches. I have had the privilege of being on both ends of that relationship, so so excited to be here. So my name is Leigha May. I am an executive coach, a career coach for the modern professional who wants to love their work life and their personal life. They don't want to have to choose. And I came to coaching about six years ago. Prior to that, my background was in tech startups, so I worked as head of recruiting, head of HR. So in my work I kind of blend this tactical strategy that you get from the corporate world but alongside the mindset, work and the coaching that really brings that internal world to life. And that is my approach and how I support people.
Michelle: 1:40
Yes, which I love. You have that hippy, touchy, feely corporate combo. That's just very rare to come by, right?
Leigha: 1:50
I don't know that I've ever heard hippy and corporate in the same sentence, but I kind of love it. So we'll work that into a new tagline.
Michelle: 1:58
I love it, I love it. All the corporate people would be like ooh, I don't know about that. That sounds crazy. We're doing corporate with soul. That's what we're doing over here. Yeah yeah, there you go, corporate with soul. So tell them some of the places that you worked. This is just for bragging rights, that you're so amazing because you have experience in, you know startups and HR. But, like, tell them some of the places where you worked?
Leigha: 2:19
Yeah, absolutely Well. I definitely started in the startup world with different e-commerce platforms and apps like Omaze and the Honest Company, but then I also worked at some shinier, bigger companies like SpaceX and Nike as well, within their entrepreneur incubator. So I've seen companies big and small.
Michelle: 2:36
Yes, oh my gosh, I'm envious and I you know you got me on the Honest Company mascara and Nike when you worked there, I feel like I liked sporty stuff way more than you. That just seemed backwards.
Leigha: 2:49
I've never owned so much sporty, swooshy material in my life, but I did create a love for it during that time. Absolutely.
Michelle: 2:56
Yes, yes, it's like my only wardrobe, so I'm glad you picked up on that. Anyway, Leah has worked some really super amazing places and has had a ton of great experience and she's very soulful, mindful, and so I feel like her coaching - well, I've gotten a lot of her coaching so I can say it for sure - is the perfect place for that. What we want to talk about today is something that my clients and her clients share - and we were just discussing this before we hit record - maybe all women, or all humans at some point: imposter syndrome. So tell me your experience with that and kind of what your I don't know your cure is for that.
Leigha: 3:36
Well, that I think we'll need a few episodes for all that, but I'll start with my personal experience. Before I even got into the coaching world, I didn't understand that imposter syndrome was just the way I was moving through and living in the world. It was so ingrained to my culture, both familially, and more systematically, in the culture of the world, the patriarchy. I was someone who wanted to achieve and who wanted to be the best at all the things and constantly was competitive with myself, in my own head, trying to be the best, trying to be a perfectionist, trying to think of all of the different angles of a situation all of the time. And what I didn't know is that pull to achieve was really imposter syndrome. Because on the other side of that I was afraid what if I get it wrong? What if I'm not the best? What if I don't win? What if I'm not accepted? What if they don't like me? So I thought I was just a high achiever. Little did I know, I was living imposter syndrome.
Michelle: 4:37
That's a good point. I feel like I definitely would have all the confidence in the world if I was going for a new job and be like I can totally get this job, I'm going to do it, I'm going to get it. And then I'd get it and be like why did they hire me for this? I even felt that way when we adopted our first child, like why did they choose me to take care of this child? I have no idea what I'm doing. It's just like our brain, or my brain anyway they just automatically went to that After I had the confidence to apply for it and think, "I'm going to go for it" Absolutely.
Leigha: 5:06
Absolutely. And I think that's a tell-tale sign that you know you're experiencing imposter syndrome. When you already have the position or you've achieved the thing, like it's already happened on paper, and now your brain is playing these games to question yourself and well, what if they find you out? What if you fail? What if you lose it all? What if you're not cut out for this? But you've already achieved the thing? It's a really tell-tale sign that you are indeed experiencing imposter syndrome. So why does this happen? What happens to us? Yeah. Absolutely. So, my hypothesis on this is that imposter syndrome - the opposite of imposter syndrome is self-belief. So I believe that the lack of confidence, the lack of internal trust, is what creates imposter syndrome. Within imposter syndrome, we're always worried about when the other shoe is going to drop, when people find us out, and it's really because we are projecting a lack of self-belief that we already have everything we need to figure out the situation or to be great at the job. So for me, it really comes down to a lack of self-belief.
Michelle: 6:14
And so when we notice that we're having imposter syndrome, do we have to freak out?
Leigha: 6:18
No, absolutely not. Great question, Michelle. Absolutely not. And I think, you know, just even normalizing it, hopefully through this conversation, and even in just our internal self-talk. It is so typical, it's so common. I mean the phrase imposter syndrome, it's everywhere. Everyone knows about it because everyone feels it at some point or another in their life, maybe more so in certain situations or certain circumstances, but I've not met one person who has never felt this way. So you don't have to freak out. If anything, you can just normalize it with yourself. Of course I feel scared; I just got this job that I really wanted. Or of course I'm nervous; I'm a new mom for the first time. Of course I'm questioning my ability. So just that self-talk, I think, really is everything. Instead of making yourself wrong for that fear, just normalizing it like, yeah, this is part of the human experience we're going to feel that sometimes. Like yeah, this makes sense and also I don't have to believe that I'm incapable. Absolutely. It's just a doubt, and doubt is just a thought and, as you tell your listeners all the time, you can choose a different thought. If this one doesn't feel good in your body, what's another thought that feels as true, or maybe even more true, that does sit better with your nervous system?
Michelle: 7:33
Yeah, and I think too, I just - when it's me, I like to know that other people feel that way, like, let's say, you as a coach, I totally respect you. If I have imposter syndrome as a coach, and I know that you sometimes feel that, or used to in the past, anyway, it makes me feel better, like okay, we're just on this human condition together.
Leigha: 7:56
Absolutely, and I think the more we can normalize it, the better. Imposter syndrome can be really isolating. It's almost like, you know, what if everyone finds me out? It's a very lonely experience. So if you can remind yourself that you're not alone other friends, other colleagues, people you know further along than you also feel this every day it just helps to kind of calm that nervous system and not isolate yourself, because it really is a very foundational human experience, I find.
Michelle: 8:29
Mmm-hmm. I just did a podcast on shame a couple of weeks ago and talked a lot about how, when you feel shame - and the way you're describing this kind of reminds me of it, which is why I'm bringing it up - that not only do you feel like something is wrong with you, like it's not just I'm new at a job and I feel uncomfortable, it's like I'm not the right person, there's something with me as a person that's wrong. And then when we feel that way, how we do isolate and sort of tell ourselves nobody else can see me, I don't want them to see my flaws, and I want to just go hide in my office and shut the door instead of going out there and talking to people, and it feels very shamy, like close to shame.
Leigha: 9:06
Well, we create our own realities, right? So if you are telling yourself that nobody wants to see you and you don't belong, then you create that circumstance where you're not allowing yourself to be seen, you're not allowing yourself to be judged. So the thoughts we think really do create our reality. And that's why talking about things like shame and imposter syndrome, it's so important, because if we don't acknowledge it and if we don't intentionally choose how we want to work through it, then we're just gonna take the default behavior, which often doesn't put us in our best light, doesn't put us in our most empowering state.
Michelle: 9:43
Yeah, if you think about the types of work you're gonna do when you're feeling that way, you might put something together, but it's definitely not gonna be your highest quality, best stuff. Okay, so if we have established, basically, if you feel that way, it's not a problem, it's just a doubt, it's just a thought. Everybody else feels that way, so what should they do? What do you coach your people to do?
Leigha: 10:04
Yeah, absolutely. So the first thing I coach people, f irst you really gotta create the awareness of when you're doing it, and the easiest way is when you catch yourself is just to say it out loud. Like, ooh, I noticed I'm doing that thing where I think my boss has a negative opinion of me. Or I'm noticing I'm doing that thing again where I'm questioning if I was really cut out to be a mom. Right, so just naming it out loud beyond yourself. So first thing is you've gotta create awareness before you can create any type of shift. And then from there that's when you can actually do the work to change the behavior. But if you don't know when you're doing it or if you bypass those moments, then we're missing that opportunity to really create change.
Michelle: 10:49
Okay, and the noticing is a neutral noticing for the way you're describing it. It's not like oh, I'm doing that again. I'm such a jerk, I need to stop doing this. Right, you're just like making an observation. That's the way I hear you describing it.
Leigha: 11:03
That's such a good point. Absolutely, because if you are - it's funny. We're gonna talk about how you speak to yourself next. So if you start off with your awareness by speaking negatively to yourself, like, oh, here I go again, or am I ever gonna get over this, you're already setting yourself up for failure. So it's a neutral noticing just like you're reporting the weather oh, it's rainy outside today, oh, I'm doing that thing I do sometimes. Absolutely neutral.
Michelle: 11:26
Okay, okay, great. So once they notice which may be hard for the first couple of times, but usually once you're onto yourself, hopefully they can catch it. And then what?
Leigha: 11:36
Yeah. So then we wanna really talk about shifting your language and shifting your thinking, and a term that I use a lot with my clients is, right- sizing your language. So I wanna explain what I mean by that. If you are turning your situation into a catastrophe, maybe, Michelle, maybe you can give me an example. What's a moment where you felt imposter syndrome in your past? Maybe one of your last shiny companies that you worked at?
Michelle: 12:02
Oh my gosh. Yes, Okay, when the company was gonna be bought and I had been doing one thing and they decided to just put me on the team of people who were selling the different parts of our company and transitioning all these employees over to their new jobs, and I thought, I have no idea how to do this. Why would they ask me to do this? I can't do this.
Leigha: 12:22
Oh, perfect, Okay. So notice Michelle's thoughts. I have no idea. I can't do this. What were they thinking. Right? So Michelle's mind immediately went to this really kind of catastrophized language I'm so out of my league. What am I doing here? I don't know how to do this. So see how dramatic Michelle got and I just put her on this spot. So we're pulling from a past experience.
Michelle: 12:46
Yeah, that wasn't even acting, that was real. Yeah, absolutely.
Leigha: 12:51
So, notice, our minds typically jump to worst case scenario. This is terrible. We don't know how to do this. So if we right- size our language, we don't allow ourselves to get overly dramatic, but we just name what's happening as close to a fact as possible. So when we're going facts over feelings, we're just again reporting the weather. So what actually happened here is Michelle was put into a new role and she's going to need to learn a new skill to sell these parts of the business. So instead of I don't know what I'm doing, I've never done this before If we're shifting our language and say I've not sold this part of the business, I'm going to need to learn that. Do you notice how different it is? There's still a gap that needs filled. We're not lying to ourselves and saying like, I can do anything. We're not going totally positive, but we're just going to, instead of catastrophe, how do we actually name just the facts of what's happening? There's some new skills to be built here. So notice how much more openly your mind can approach "I have some new skills to build versus what are they thinking? I've never done this before. What if it all goes wrong?
Michelle: 14:00
Even as you were saying and right- sizing the words and the way you were talking about it, in my mind I was automatically started thinking, yeah, I had helped with purchases of business, I had sold certain products, I had managed a million projects. Even just in you saying those words, my brain started filling up with all the experience that I did have, where I just had to tweak the way that I was thinking about it.
Leigha: 14:26
This is why you were meant to be a coach, because your mind already jumped to the third step of this process. That was so out of this. No, but it's so perfect, because notice, as soon as we shifted to the right- size language, look at all of that possibility that opened up. Instead of going to catastrophe, you're like, yeah, I did this, that was similar. This skill set transfers. The next step of after the awareness, after we right-sized the language, then it's building belief, because imposter syndrome is just coming from a lack of belief. Michelle just laid out beautifully how you build belief. What are all of the things that you have done? What's another time in your life where you went into something new that you hadn't done before and you figured it out just by stating, oh yeah, I've done these other difficult things, or I have this skill that transfers. You're starting to build the belief and that imposter syndrome is going to get more quiet and more quiet the louder your self-belief gets. It's never a binary like I either have self-belief or I have imposter syndrome. We have the capacity for all of those things inside of us. Which voice is louder? Which voice are we feeding? Building belief is exactly the right place to go. After you right-size the language.
Michelle: 15:43
We just need to get to 51 percent of belief, and then we can feel better.
Leigha: 15:48
Well, as long as you're being kind to yourself in the awareness, I'm one who really thinks like it's okay when imposter syndrome pops up because I'm just going to go back to my awareness. Oh yep, here's that thing that I do when I get put in front of large audiences. Okay, let me right-size the language. I'm nervous because I'm in front of a large audience. That happens to me sometimes. Let me build belief. When else have I been near or around new groups of people? It's not that it even has to be 51 percent. It's like oh, imposter syndrome is going to pop up, especially in new situations or situations that catch us off guard. It's part of the human experience. As long as you have the tools to create the awareness, right-size the language and build belief, it's not a problem if you slip in and out of imposter syndrome, because you've always got the tools to get you back on track.
Michelle: 16:38
It's like you've got the ladder to climb out of the hole. Will you say those questions about building belief again? I just want to make sure that everybody got those two questions you said. I think those were so good.
Leigha: 16:49
Absolutely. If I want to build belief, I'm looking at what have I done in the past that's similar to what I'm being asked to do now. Your mind goes, I've never done this before. But if you say, if I have done it, what's the closest thing possible? Then, if it is a little more ambiguous or it really truly is, a brand new experience, when is another time I've done a hard thing? Or what's another example of a time that I did something for the first time? How did I figure it out? Like Michelle's example, maybe she hasn't sold parts of the business before, but has she been in a situation where she had to sell something else? Or has she been in a situation where she was thrown onto a project that she didn't know much about and she had to figure it out? Yes, she was.
Michelle: 17:37
Those are both true. Now I think the one where I became a mom. If I were to apply that same question, I would say well, I took care of my nieces and my nephews. That is not the same. I don't think I really have a comparable one to that. So I think that would be more the second question of like, when's a time when I did something brand new for the first time, because I guess we have to do everything for the first time. So that is probably where I would have gone with that, and just I wish I would have had these tools in both of those situations, because I didn't, and instead I just was thinking, oh my goodness, I can't believe they gave this baby to me. But then, over time, I realized there's no magic to being a mom. You just like spend time with your child and then you figure out what they need. And it's the same with the big project. There's no magic to this kind of project. You just have to meet the people and figure out what we're trying to do and then start doing it.
Leigha: 18:29
Absolutely. And with that last example of being a mom, let's say you've done nothing similar before, you've never taken care of another child in your life. You could also ask yourself what's my go-to way for problem solving? Mm-hmm, yeah. Right, when I don't know how to do something, what's my approach? And framing it like that, like a question that your brain has to answer, then you can come up with that data. So I know a lot about you, Michelle, so I can say, ok, Michelle's approach would probably be to research. She's really good at data and really good at researching, so she'd probably Google some things online. She might crowdsource and ask a couple really trusted family members or colleagues or friends what their best advice is, and then she would take all that data from friends and from the internet and she would create her own approach, try a few things out and iterate from there.
Michelle: 19:22
Yes, absolutely! That's so good, you nailed it. Good job, good job, absolutely. I called my best friend from high school who has six kids. At that time I think she had four or five. She's like I'll send you everything you need, I'll tell you what you need to do. But then you get tons of advice from other people and you try it and it doesn't work for you. And that's when you have to say like, oh, my child is different than their child and I am different than them. But you start to trust yourself, I think, once you get some information. And I also like when we're on the way to pick him up for the first time to adopt him. I had two baby books and I was like flipping back and forth between them, figuring out how often between bottles do they need to eat or when are you supposed to burp? I was just cramming in the car on the way there. It worked, he's fine, he's 16.
Leigha: 20:07
I was going to say, Oliver turned out pretty fantastic if I do say so myself. No disasters.
Michelle: 20:11
So far, so good. Yeah, that's awesome. I love that because that really helps you build belief, no matter how much experience you have, and I think sometimes it's harder to build belief when you don't have the experience. But if you do what you recommended, which is to figure out how do you solve problems, it just makes it so much easier.
Leigha: 20:31
Well, and our brains love to answer questions. So really, when you go back to you, know how you're speaking to yourself. If you're just walking around saying I don't know how to do this, they're gonna find me out. There's no curiosity, it's all close ended, right. But if I say, how do I tackle new problems when I don't know how to solve them, how do I gain new information when there's no rule book, then your brain can go after okay, there's a question to answer, let's come up with some options. So it's also in how you pose those questions to yourself, whether it opens curiosity or if you're letting your imposter syndrome run the show.
Michelle: 21:08
Okay, this is awesome, so good. Is there anything else we should know when it comes to imposter syndrome?
Leigha: 21:14
Yeah, I wanna just again go back to normalizing how typical it is and not making yourself wrong for it. If you can use this as an exploration, I like to gamify everything. Right, that's how my mind works. I like to be self- competitive. So if I can just gamify, how many times can I catch that voice of imposter syndrome? Let me be onto myself. So I'm gonna just start this process with awareness building. I don't even have to try to change anything, I just wanna start with the awareness. Get really curious. I bet the majority of you listening probably have a voice of imposter syndrome popping up at least here or there. So get really curious about where does this pop up in my life and then with that curiosity we can address how to go after it. But I would gamify it. Just know that it's normal, it happens to all of us and the more awareness we have, the more control we have of when we wanna let that voice in.
Michelle: 22:09
Yep, okay, that's so great. Thank you so much. I wanna tell you guys, too, where you can find Leah and tell you about her podcast, which is such a cool, interesting format. I love it. So tell us about your podcast, the name, what it's like, et cetera.
Leigha: 22:24
Yeah, absolutely so. The Workl ife Coach podcast is the name. That's the work life is one word. So the Workl ife Coach podcast it's on all the major platforms Spotify, Apple, all the other ones that are out there as well, I'm sure. And for this I really wanted to create a show where people could write in from the corporate space. They are achievers, they wanna do great at their work, but they also wanna have a whole well-rounded life. So this is where the term Workl ife comes in. How do I approach work and life in a way that's intentional and thoughtful, and who the heck can I talk to about these questions? Because as much as I love HR and I started in HR, HR is not always on your side and they're not always unbiased. So I wanted to give people a place where they could really write in, ask for that expert corporate advice, but also have the intentionality of a leadership coach and executive coach who can really help them achieve their highest personal goals, not just company goals. So the format of the show it's kind of like a write in Dear Abby style, if you will, where people will write in their questions regarding their work life and we dive into it. We slice it a thousand different ways, talk about the different angles, and I always try to leave people with a really simple tool for how they can unpack their own situation that may be similar.
Michelle: 23:45
I think it's so awesome. First of all, it's so much fun and I encourage you guys, if you have a question like this that you wanna ask HR but that doesn't seem like the best place, go to Leah's podcast website.
Leigha: 23:56
It's theworklifecoachpodcast. com and there's an area where you can submit. You can leave a voice note, you can write in a letter anonymously and there's a good chance it'll be featured on the show.
Michelle: 24:07
Yes. So if you really wanna get your question answered, and then here's the other great thing you don't have to be on the show, it's not your voice. You just write in your question and then, because Leah isn't talking back and forth to you, she gives all kinds of options, and so all the ones that I've listened to, there's always a takeaway in it for me, even though I don't have a corporate job anymore and maybe I didn't have that specific question, it's just really, really helpful. Tons of great tips and how to think about things. So go to her podcast website and write in if you've got a question. It's just so fun.
Leigha: 24:40
Thank you so much, Michelle. I appreciate that. I'll also mention if imposter syndrome is something that you resonate with. I also have another tool that is really helpful in building that self-belief, which is a 30-day Confidence Challenge. So I'm happy to link that in the show notes as well If you're interested in building that self-belief and building a stronger foundation of confidence, which again just helps lower that voice of imposter syndrome.
Michelle: 25:05
That's awesome. Who doesn't need more confidence? Even confident people could use a little bit more, right? That's great. 100%, all right. Okay, I think that's it for today. Thank you so much, Leigha. That was so helpful. I love these tips and I will I don't know probably talk to you in five minutes.
Leigha: 25:22
Can't wait, looking forward to it. Thanks for having me, but bye Okay okay, bye. Thanks so much.
Michelle: Thank you for listening to the Overwhelmed Working Woman podcast. If you want to learn more about my work, head over to my website at MichelleGauthier,com. See you next week.
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