Ep #78: How to Enjoy Money and Reduce Financial Overwhelm
episode summary
Do you find yourself thinking “I’d feel less overwhelmed if I had more money” OR “I don’t even know where to start with understand or managing my money”?
If these are thoughts you’ve been having, this episode is for you.
My guest Melissa Joy and I dive deep into the unique challenges women face with finances, from imposter syndrome to the hesitation of investing in themselves. Tune in to learn:
Why women often feel less confident with money decisions (and how to overcome that!)
Simple strategies to break free from societal norms and invest in yourself without guilt.
How to feel empowered instead of afraid when it comes to making and managing money.
Tune in now to gain financial confidence and start ENJOYING money today.
Featured on the podcast:
The Good Life group coaching waitlist
Pearl Planning
Women's Money Wisdom podcast
Ep#43: Overcome Imposter Syndrome
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For the full show notes and transcript, head over here.
If you are sick and tired of feeling overwhelmed, I can help. I coach clients on 1 on 1 to create a more calm, relaxing, intentional life. The first step is to set up a complimentary discovery session right here.
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Want to learn more about me or my work? Head to my website at www.michellegauthier.com
Discover practical strategies to overcome imposter syndrome, manage time effectively, and cultivate a calm and positive mindset while setting boundaries and combating negative self-talk in high-stress jobs, all while learning how to say no and prioritize self-care on the 'Overwhelmed Working Woman' podcast.
Music Used: Pop Guitar Intro 01 by TaigaSoundProd, Licensed under CC BY 4.0: https://filmmusic.io/standard-licen
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CHAPTERS:
4:43 - What's Up With Women and Money?
11:51 - Imposter Syndrome
16:40 - The Value of Confidence
19:37 - Financial Basics
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Melissa Joy: 0:00
I assume everybody else I know has it all figured out. I'm so embarrassed to even come to you. It feels anxious and very difficult because you think you're gonna get really bad news.
Michelle Gauthier: 0:14
You're listening to Overwhelmed Working Woman, the podcast that helps you be more calm and more productive by doing less. I'm your host, Michelle Gauthier, a former overwhelmed working woman and current life coach. On this show we unpack the stress and pressure that today's working woman experiences and in each episode you'll get a strategy to bring more calm, ease and relaxation to your life. Hi friend, Can you believe that it is fall and almost the end of 2024? Well, the beginning of the last quarter. I have a couple more things big things planned for the rest of this year, so I am not taking my foot off the gas pedal yet. One of the things that I'm going to do is launch my group coaching. I'm doing a fourth and final group for the year. That starts in November. It's 12 weeks long, starts in November and it actually goes through February because we take off the whole week of Thanksgiving and the last two weeks at the end of the year because of all the things going on then. But it is the perfect place for you to get started thinking about the end of this year and moving into the beginning of next year with peace and purpose. So if you have been interested in my group coaching before - and I have had lots of people tell me that they want to sign up as the new year is beginning - so no, we're not there yet, but we are getting darn close and I always offer the best pricing right when group coaching is being launched. So if you are interested, click on the link in the podcast notes and get on the waitlist. When you're on the waitlist, you will get the first notification when group coaching is open and you will get the discounted pricing.
Michelle Gauthier: 1:53
Okay, that is a nice transition into today's episode and today's guest, which is all about money, as I'm talking about getting discounted pricing. Money is something that I talk to my clients about quite a bit. It seems like money can be a source of overwhelm, either perceiving that we have a lack of money or perceiving that we don't understand how to manage our money, and it just becomes one of those things that adds additional stress and overwhelm to our lives. My guest today is a pro on this topic. She is the host of the Women's Money Wisdom podcast and her name is Melissa Joy, and we're going to talk about a bunch of interesting things today, but one is issues specific to women with regards to money. So studies have shown that women feel less confident with money decisions and that they sometimes have imposter syndromes, and she's going to talk about that and give us some strategies to break free from those societal norms and be able to invest in yourself and make good money decisions, and by the end of the episode you'll be feeling more empowered versus afraid about making, managing, and even spending money.
Michelle Gauthier: 3:00
So I'm glad you've tuned in today - enjoy today's guest! Thank you, Melissa, for being with us today. It is just awesome to have you and I'm excited to talk to you. I think one of the things that we have in common is that we both work with women, and I think that we kind of have a crossover, because I work with people who are feeling overwhelmed and one of the topics that I often talk to women about is money but their thoughts about money, where you're helping people figure out what to do, where to invest, where to stay, where to spend, etc. And it seems like you're really focusing on money, but I would imagine that sometimes people get overwhelmed with that as well. What do you think?
Melissa Joy: 3:41
Oh, I totally agree, and I think money is a resource to help you deal with your overwhelm or whatever your pain point is. So one of the things that it's important to remember - I think people assume that I just my only services are in your accounts, and no, you are my client and it's your life that I'm working with, and then your accounts or your money are a resource to make that work better now and over time.
Michelle Gauthier: 4:07
Yes, yes, so you're like money coach slash life coaching and I'm a life coach slash a little bit of talk about money, but I'm not advising on what they should do with it. So we're different in that way. But I'd love to just talk to you about some of the things that I see when I am working with my clients and see if you see similar things and if you could just advise the listeners, who are all overwhelmed working women, on some simple strategies they might be able to use to feel better about their money. So great, if I were to just ask you - this is completely open-ended - but what's up with women and money? What would you say are some of the general themes that you see with women as it relates to money?
Melissa Joy: 4:49
Well, let's start with a reality for all of us that women don't have a multi-century history being the decision makers when it comes to money. So maybe the household was managed 50 or 100 years ago, but the financial accounts typically were not. We've all seen the statistics that women couldn't have bank accounts on their own until the 70s, and that's just wild.
Michelle Gauthier: 5:17
That kills me. One time I read that and I looked it up because I'm like, that cannot be right. It was right.
Melissa Joy: 5:24
So much we learn kind of at the knee of our parent. We all - whether it's how you act in life or the decisions you make about money - we all kind of carry in our invisible backpack the lessons we learned as a child. And so for women, those lessons are different because there's not that history of kind of handing down information. And so what I think some of the results are are there are less women talking about money. There are less kind of, you know, you turn on CNBC, you don't see as many talking heads who are kind of the names, who are women.
Melissa Joy: 5:58
So oftentimes I see with women they're doing pretty well, but they feel like they do not have it figured out at all. So there's this imposter syndrome that we learn about in our professional workplace. That is definitely present, in my opinion, in your experiences with your own personal investment decisions or money decisions. And I also think, just as a society, we don't talk about money that much in a realistic way. We see on, you know, kind of on social media, people talking about money, maybe externally, showing what they either purchase or how frugal they can be, but we don't have this cultural narrative that we are comfortable talking about money. So all of this means there's a lot of anxiety and perhaps fear and uncertainty as to whether you may be doing things well.
Michelle Gauthier: 6:47
Yes, oh my gosh. Yes, exactly. I feel like it kind of falls into the category of religion and politics where it's like, don't talk about money, it's not okay to talk about money, where I think, in an ideal world, we women, at a girl's dinner, could be talking about things like that, especially because we are now, as to your point, we are often making as much or more hopefully soon more likely to be making more than our male counterparts, so that we have an equal opportunity to be spending money, saving money, you know, doing all those things. But your point is really good. I hadn't thought about that. That women being the decision makers with regards to money is fairly new for us.
Melissa Joy: 7:31
Well, and I'm sure you work with a lot of female breadwinners, I do as well, and sometimes in a relationship the dynamics change and one person may be a breadwinner and then it shifts to another. But that confidence in the working world I think we've seen more examples and we just need to relate that to how to get things done when it comes to your personal finance. So there's work to be done.
Michelle Gauthier: 7:56
Yes, absolutely. One thing that I see a lot is that women are more hesitant to spend money on themselves, which I think is an extension of the people pleasing that we are sort of brought up to think about as women. I'm going to go ahead and stereotype men right now, so I'm going to say this is a stereotype and it's not all cases, whatever, but I feel like in general, men are much less concerned. You don't often hear a man say, I don't want to spend that money on myself, right. But women definitely think that, especially if it's for something like coaching or maybe hiring a certified financial planner, or something like that, that they're much more likely - like my clients, as an example, it would cost about the same to work with me as it would cost for your kids to do select soccer for a year. A woman would much more easily say yes to doing something for their kids versus investing in themselves. So I'm wondering do you see that same thing and do you help women work
Melissa Joy: 8:58
I do see the same thing. I think I have read about - this is stereotypical, or not everybody, but big ticket items for a man might be a watch or a car, and the big ticket items for a woman may be a purse or an article of clothing, and of course, the price tags can be all over the place for all of those things. But it tends to be that some of the bigger ticket items for men, on average, are higher just to begin with, and it may be more utilitarian for her car or something like that.
Melissa Joy: 9:37
And there also is that reminder that put the oxygen on yourself, whether it's your wellbeing, your financial security - that old adage in the airplane to make sure that you're breathing before you take care of the people around you. Sometimes there is a struggle to balance your needs with those of your family members, or you just may feel like you don't deserve those decisions for yourself. I'm also a huge advocate, whenever possible, and every family has a different kind of approach, and I know we're talking to both people in relationships as well as single people, but it's okay to have your own money to spend. Not everything has to be a joint financial decision. Some families may make a decision that everything is going to be. But that should be a decision and you should have agency in that discussion and not just kind of be like oh, it's all our money and we need a co-counsel to decide.
Michelle Gauthier: 10:31
Yeah, that's a really great point. I feel like that's a little bit of a - can be a point of contention. I'm divorced, but one of the things that we never fought about was money, and we always had separate accounts and we had a joint account too that we used to pay the mortgage or whatever. But I do think that there's a lot of power in being able to spend money that's just your own, even if, let's just say, he wouldn't have worked or I wouldn't have worked - in this case, we both did. But having separate money that you can do whatever you want with, whether you want to invest that or spend it or whatever. I think that makes a lot of sense.
Melissa Joy: 11:07
You may make a decision as a couple that here's the max that we can spend autonomously, and certainly I don't want to kind of give free reign to financial infidelity where there's unexplained or unexpected spending that is compromising the safety of the family. So money really can be a difficult thing to navigate in a relationship, and if it is, then you should perhaps consider working with a professional, whether it's a financial planner or perhaps a financial therapist and I know financial therapists who actually work with couples who have different perspectives on money.
Michelle Gauthier: 11:41
I might need to get some of those names. I hear problems with that quite often in my coaching. Okay, that's good to know, that's good to know, all right. So one thing you touched on was imposter syndrome. The imposter syndrome I see a lot is people at work, you know these smart, smart women who have really worked their way up to the top and then sometimes they doubt their abilities, or even wonder, like if they knew the real me, would they give me this job? Yeah, I've been there. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think that's like, the first thing I always say is like you and every other woman alive, you know, that's just, it's just part of it. We don't have to judge ourselves. I did a whole episode on imposter syndrome, if anybody feels stuck on that right now, but tell me about how you see that show up with money.
Melissa Joy: 12:28
Well, I will tell you, I see it with men and women and I work with a lot of families where I'm working with both. I just think it's very deeper when it comes to the men and there's like kind of an overlayer if I were to generalize of like almost overconfidence, where, oh, I know most things and maybe they know one area of financial planning, but not all the areas. But the way I see it present itself is first of all just an insecurity, like I assume everybody else I know has it all figured out, I'm so embarrassed to even come to you.
Melissa Joy: 13:01
It feels anxious and very difficult because you think you're going to get really bad news about all of the reasons that you aren't doing a great job and maybe when it comes to money, we haven't gotten a lot of positive reinforcement.
Melissa Joy: 13:15
You've only focused on the negative lessons and you just give yourself a baseline credit for doing a good job, but you remember all the mistakes you made because it perhaps is more painful or memorable, but I just feel like there's a lack of financial literacy.
Melissa Joy: 13:29
Also, there's just a lot of times women are a little more risk averse and so they may be doing - have a great foundation to improve over time. So I really try to relate to people and both explain where you're doing a great job and then explain the opportunities, because it's rare that I see someone who's just painted themselves into a corner where they don't have good opportunities, especially because we're typically starting to work with people mid-career, so there's a lot of time and a lot of runway to get your financial house in order before the big R of retirement. But it's just because they haven't spoken to - they've never talked to a professional. A lot of people have told them what they should know and it may or may not make sense to them because maybe they don't have time to research the 401k versus the Roth 401k or figure out much more than their open enrollment, because they've got everything else on their plate - and you know this, because that's the work that you do, is how to get things off your plate.
Michelle Gauthier: 14:26
Yeah, absolutely. And I think from age - probably, I don't know, birth until 30- something when I finally got a financial planner - like I'm thinking of a financial decision I made that was a very big one, and it was my first job that I got out of graduate school and the CFO of the company was helping me sign up and do my direct deposit and all that stuff and he's like, you should just put 10% to your 401k. And I was like, okay, I don't know what that means, I don't really know how much money that is. He said, you'll never miss it, it's good for taxes. And thank God I did it. What a gift, I know, I've often thought I should write him a thank you note. Thanks, Jeff. I don't remember your last name, but I remember his first name.
Michelle Gauthier: 15:07
I don't know why I listened to him. Maybe he just seemed like a trustworthy guy. I'm so glad he suggested that to me, because then I just kept - I even switched companies and I just did that 10% and pretty soon I was like, okay, I have a decent amount of money here. But if he hadn't said that to me, I'm afraid I would have gotten to be like in my 30s before I really did anything about it. So I guess the point is, like, I consider myself to be a smart person,
Michelle Gauthier: 15:36
I lucked into doing the right thing as far as that savings goes, and I felt like when I got a real financial planner it was great because there was something to work with, but also - at the time it was a guy - he was able to tell me, I mean, this is good, but you could be making so much more if you did this, or if you're willing to take this much risk. And the thing that I realized is, I don't have any interest in understanding every single detail on this. This, to me, is outsourcing, just like I outsource someone else to do any other task in my household, but I care about it enough to understand. Right, like to say, well, tell me why you made that decision, or whatever.
Melissa Joy: 16:12
I once told one of my earliest mentors, when I was trying to figure out the work that we did, that I was learning that we did. Hey, I could learn how to change my oil, but I won't. And he was like no, financial planning is bigger than that. But really, to me that's what it boils down to, because I have no desire to ever learn about any of the parts of my car other than how to clean it, how to make it go, when to buy a new one, things like that.
Melissa Joy: 16:40
I know that in the financial world, it's kind of ironic because the same people that would tell you you should get a personal trainer and you should get a coach and hire a maid to help clean your house and do landscaping, would also say you're wasting money if you work with a financial planner.
Melissa Joy: 17:01
And I just feel like it's the opposite. It is difficult to measure because it's, to me, the value of the advice is the compound returns of good financial decisions, and of course there's some other kind of details. But almost every time I start working with someone I'm like, why isn't this account invested? Or did you realize that your mom is still listed as your beneficiary designation, but now you have kids and a spouse, or there's always little things that are missed along the way, when you're like I got this because somebody told me I have to, and so yeah, certainly, if you have a passion for it and it's your hobby to be an investor, then kudos, way to go. Or if you have a very basic financial life. But when we get into the messy middle, which I know that's the people we're both working with, there's a limit to what you can devote time to, and taking some of that off of the plate can both reduce the imposter syndrome, reduce the stress, and increase the results, all making you feel better and have better outcomes.
Michelle Gauthier: 18:01
Yes, absolutely yes. One of the real foundations of coaching is, just when you have a thought about something, what kind of feeling does it create? And now, when I think about my money, my investments, whatever, when it comes to mind, the feeling that is created is just calm. I'm like, it's handled. Yeah, it's good to go, it's handled. And if you think about what is that worth? Just to be like, I don't have to worry about this.
Melissa Joy: 18:30
The value of confidence is so strong. And even if you do have that lingering feeling of like ooh, this is stressful, it feels like going to the dentist or something like that - using an example of something I don't enjoy going to, then I always check with people at the end of our meetings and like, ask, how are you feeling, how do you feel? You know things have changed over time, because that really is where you see that sense of like, yes, I feel so much more centered and I also - reducing uncertainty is always additive. It always helps things out.
Michelle Gauthier: 19:05
Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, what is it about money that seems overwhelming or confusing? Because, again, I work with so many smart women and often they will say to me, I actually have no idea where our money goes. I don't know how much we're spending every month. I don't know. And it could be the opposite they could be the person who's paying all the bills and all those things. But just in general, especially if someone has a partner who's taking care of a lot of the financial things, what would you recommend? What's the basics that just any woman should know?
Melissa Joy: 19:37
Well, I think one of the basics everybody should know is how much is coming in and how much is going out. So you just described that, of what exactly is going on. Do we have enough? And sometimes it can just be habit that you divided and conquered and you're gonna sign the kids up for activities and he's going to invest the accounts or things like that. But you don't want to give away information and autonomy and you do wanna be a decision maker at the table, even if it's delegated, for who's managing things, and so understanding your cash flow. I don't think everybody has to know where every dollar and cent goes every month, but you do get a sense of, is there money left over? Are we saving anywhere? Are there unexpected credit cards? What's in your name? So I definitely you could do a free annual credit report, get a sense of where money is, and then I think it's great,
Melissa Joy: 20:33
I think there's so much information in a network statement or personal balance sheet and all you need to do there is list out all of your accounts or grab all your statements at the end of the quarter, typically you'll get those in email or the mail. You'd start with all your bank accounts, if you're in a relationship and making shared decisions for both of you, this will be a great money date to sit down and do things, or, if you're single, do it with a good friend that also wants to get better financial accountability. So you can make your list and put it in a spreadsheet or a Word document or just a piece of paper. If I have these bank accounts, here's how they're titled, and here's how much money there is. I've got these investment accounts and here's who owns them. Maybe it's individual or joint or in a trust and then list your retirement accounts, including your 401ks, your IRAs, your Roth IRAs.
Melissa Joy: 21:26
You might have an annuity or insurance that has a value. List your property and things that have value, like your house and your car, and then go down and list all your loans or liabilities. So if you still have student loans, your mortgage, credit cards, personal loans, and so you make that list, you may - I usually keep the kids' college funds underneath, kind of separate, because it's really earmarked for the kids, but then you can add up the bottom line and don't feel embarrassed or ashamed if it's smaller than you think it was, and a lot of times you may be surprised that it's more than you thought it would be. But what I think is terrific is if you measure that at least every year and so then you can see the change over time. So maybe you really made an effort to pay down debt and that lowered your cash, but it also paid off some debt. So the bottom line might be getting bigger, things like that, and that's what I would recommend.
Michelle Gauthier: 22:23
Yes, that's awesome, and it feels like sometimes people are afraid to do that, and something that you said, which I also hear every time I have a new client, they're like, you're just not going to believe what a mess my life is.
Melissa Joy: 22:37
Oh, yeah, yes.
Michelle Gauthier: 22:38
And then they tell me, and I'm like, you and everyone else, I've seen it all, yes, and it's never as bad as people perceive that it actually is. Do you echo that with money?
Melissa Joy: 22:50
Totally. I mean there are some very rare instances where it's just like, we need to just set aside a little pity party right now because this is bad. That's not to say that there's never those circumstances, but typically, no, I'm like here's all the great things you're doing and here's how excited I am about the next opportunity. And certainly you can - any great coach would approach a situation that is difficult or there's a personal toll, with empathy and respect and not come from a place of judgment.
Melissa Joy: 23:21
The other thing people don't know is like yes, totally, everybody is stressed about this or that, or it's darn expensive to have growing kids who are teenagers and driving cars or planning for college. And that is one time period where everybody's kind of maximizing their - not everybody, but a lot of people are maximizing their income. But everything's expensive and you may be in great shape for long-term for retirement and really counting the pennies when it comes to month to month expenses. Like we have definitely seen it all and we're not here to judge, we're here to help, to help make it, you know, to help modify so that things can be better.
Michelle Gauthier: 24:02
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome, good. Well, a couple of things that I ask everyone who's a guest on the show. The first one is what is something that you do to make yourself feel less overwhelmed when you're overwhelmed about whatever it may be, if it's work or your family, or the combination of both. What are some of your tricks?
Melissa Joy: 24:21
Well, I love to have things planned out. I love also to - kind of really been working hard with my husband to have kind of family check-in times and like plan it out. And also I appreciate verbalizing the things that stress me out so that I can, you know, kind of, instead of having just a running train of thoughts going through my head, I can like lay it out on paper or talk with a colleague or a family member and say we need a different plan for this or this. I'm going to do all these things but I really don't want to have it happen again. And I also see a therapist, so every other week I have a conversation to just kind of level- set my mindset, and I think mental health rep is really important in all the work that we do nowadays.
Michelle Gauthier: 25:08
Yes, absolutely. Okay. And then my other question is, what's something that you consistently do that allows you to do less or save time?
Melissa Joy: 25:16
I really choose where to delegate. So in my family we moved from kind of a suburb to a house that requires a little more maintenance and upkeep. It's kind of in the woods and the first thing I said when we were going to make an offer on the house is, like, we're going to need to hire some people to help us out. So whether it's landscaping or people that come and clean our house every other week, or even at work, outsourcing certain jobs for the business that I own, all of those things are helpful and I respect the work that someone like you does, Michelle, or I really know the value of the work that we do, and so I lean into the areas where I have strengths and there's only so many hours in the week when you're a business owner and a mom and a manager and hopefully a friend and family member. So I really I haven't figured it all out, but when possible I try to outsource or delegate.
Michelle Gauthier: 26:12
Yes, that's an awesome one, just ballpark. How many hours a week do you think you save by outsourcing?
Melissa Joy: 26:19
Oh gosh, that's, I would never get things done. And still, when people come over I'm like, welcome to the chaos, you know, but yeah, yes, I mean 10 or 20 hours. It's just like sometimes it's more found time for work, sometimes it's found time to drive the kids to the things that they need to do, to make time for that therapy, et cetera. But you know countless, countless hours weekly.
Michelle Gauthier: 26:45
Yeah, I mean, even 10 hours is like a fourth of a work week that you're just saving or having someone else do. That's amazing. It really adds up once you get in the spirit of outsourcing and really, to me, I think, having gratitude for it and appreciating it instead of being like, oh, why can everyone else - this is one of my client lies that everybody thinks is true - well, everybody else can do everything except for me. I'm like, nobody's doing everything. Everyone thinks everyone else is doing everything, but nobody is, so I feel like the more that we talk about it and normalize it, hopefully the more women will do it.
Melissa Joy: 27:24
Don't make everybody else your benchmark. That's what I would say is you have no obligation to do the same thing that everybody else in your car line or your neighborhood or at the office does. I really respect people that can seek their own pathway to contentment, and I know that so many of us who are doing all of the other things really envy the people that are making the decisions that will be most effective for their life, and everybody has a different thing that makes them tick and thing that they're passionate about. So you don't have to be judging yourself based on what everybody else is doing.
Michelle Gauthier: 28:05
Yeah, I love that. That's so great. Well, tell us a little bit more about where people can follow you or how they can reach out to you.
Melissa Joy: 28:13
Well, I am the founder of Pearl Planning and we are a financial planning and wealth management company, and so feel free, if you're curious about what we do, to check out our website at pearlplan. com and of course we're also - you can find links to socials on Facebook and Instagram from there, and then we also have a podcast, of which, Michelle, you're an upcoming guest, so please check out the Women's Money Wisdom podcast, which is in all the places, but we always are talking about relatable conversations about money for women. So we're talking about that overwhelm, we're talking about some of the technical areas of financial planning and we're really trying to give you the language so that that imposter syndrome is not a part of your vocabulary, or at least, when you're feeling it, you can identify it and realize that you don't have to embrace that feeling.
Michelle Gauthier: 29:12
Yes, that's great, just noticing without judgment and moving on. Something else I noticed too on your podcast, which I think is a really good topic for a lot of people, is you talk a lot about relationships and money, like husband, wife, or partners, or whatever. I think that can be really helpful to our audience as well.
Melissa Joy: 29:24
Yeah, that's been a big theme for me this year. So I did a lot of work with different perspectives, several therapists and other experts when it comes to power dynamics and relationships and money, and there's just so much room - you would think, after hundreds of episodes, that we'd be running out of topics, but no, in fact it's the opposite. It's like, we need to do this one. It just keeps coming. I know it's the same for you.
Michelle Gauthier: 29:48
Totally. It is. Well, I appreciate you being a guest and I'm thankful that you are a woman who is very knowledgeable about money and wants to encourage other women to become the same. So thanks for being a great example to all of us.
Melissa Joy: 30:02
Well, I'm so glad I know you too, Michelle, and it's right back at you.
Michelle Gauthier: 30:06
Good, good. Thanks so much. Thanks for listening today. Hopefully, you're feeling more confident and like less of an imposter about looking at and managing and spending your very own money. As I mentioned at the top of the episode, I will be launching my group coaching one more time in 2024. And it's going to be starting in early November. So get on the waitlist now and you will get the best pricing as soon as it's available. Have a great week. See you next week. Thank you for listening to the Overwhelmed Working Woman podcast. If you want to learn more about my work, head over to my website at michellegauthier.com. See you next week.
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