Ep #60: How to Calm Your Nervous System
episode summary
Ever wonder what your feelings of stress and overwhelm are doing to your body?
Today's expert, life coach Lauren Rapaport, explains how our nervous system reacts in times of stress and overwhelm. You'll learn how understanding your body's responses to stress can help you navigate overwhelming situations more effectively.
In this episode, you'll learn how to:
Gain awareness of the four biological responses to stress, and how they manifest in daily life.
Regulate your nervous system with simple techniques, including connecting with loved ones and moving your body.
Regulate your nervous system with simple and effective techniques.
Tune in to this episode for valuable insights and actionable strategies to better understand and regulate your nervous system, so that you can easily shift from overwhelm to calm.
Featured on the podcast:
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Legs Up Against the Wall
lifecoachingwithlauren.com
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For the full show notes and transcript, head over here.
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Discover practical strategies to overcome imposter syndrome, manage time effectively, and cultivate a calm and positive mindset while setting boundaries and combating negative self-talk in high-stress jobs, all while learning how to say no and prioritize self-care on the 'Overwhelmed Working Woman' podcast.
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CHAPTERS:
3:27 - Real vs. Perceived Threats
6:32 - Programmed for Survival
11:45 - Fight, Flight, Freeze, & Fawn
19:24 - 3 Ways to Calm Your Nervous System
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auren Rapaport: 0:00
Whether you're in fight versus flight is really not as important as just connecting with yourself and understanding where's your energy. Even if you lump them together , it's just excess energy.
Michelle Gauthier: 0:16
You're listening to Overwhelmed Working Woman, the podcast that helps you be more calm and more productive by doing less. I'm your host, Michelle Gauthier, a former overwhelmed working woman and current life coach. On this show, we unpack the stress and pressure that today's working woman experiences and in each episode you'll get a strategy to bring more calm, ease, and relaxation to your life. Hello friend, thank you for joining today. I have a great guest for you. Life coach Lauren Rappaport is going to explain how your nervous system reacts in times of stress and overwhelm. She'll help you understand your body's responses to stress and how sometimes our body feels like a tiger is chasing us when really we just have been in our boss's office and she was upset with us. She's going to teach us how to get awareness of when we're in the biological responses to stress. You might've heard of fight or flight. Those are two biological responses to stress. She's going to tell us about four of those. She's going to tell us how to regulate your nervous system with simple yet super effective techniques. And then she's, lastly, going to teach you how to foster a sense of safety and calm in your body so that you can reduce stress, and when you can reduce stress, you can think clearly. So you are in for a treat. Thanks for joining and let's welcome Lauren. Welcome, Lauren.
Michelle Gauthier: 1:42
Thank you so much for being on the podcast. I'm super excited for you to educate all of us about the nervous system today. Yes, you're a pro on here. This is your third time that you've been on this podcast. Most frequent guest. We love having you. Oh, my gosh, I feel so honored. Yeah, okay, so I think the nervous system is a word that we hear a lot, or maybe it's just because you and I are coaches and we're always following people who are talking about the nervous system, but I have to say I don't really know what it means. So could you start just by telling us, like, what is it?
Lauren Rapaport: 2:20
Yes, well, the nervous system is a very broad term that has a lot of functions and meanings. So what I mean in the context of feeling safe and overwhelmed is the autonomic nervous system. Think of it like your body's command center, which is responsible for automatic functions like breathing, heart rate, your body's survival responses like fight, flight, freeze, fawn, which is what we're going to be talking about today.
Michelle Gauthier: 2:53
Okay, okay. So when we hear like just in general terms, usually when people say, the nervous system that's probably what they're talking about is like that automatic system, okay.
Lauren Rapaport: 3:03
Yes, so in our world, when you hear the nervous system like your nervous system is dysregulated, they're talking about the autonomic nervous system.
Michelle Gauthier: 3:14
Okay, okay, perfect. And so when our nervous system works and does what it should to keep us safe, can you just give me an example of when our nervous system really serves us?
Lauren Rapaport: 3:27
Absolutely. I just want to take a step back for a second, and when I'm talking about the survival response, what I mean by that is, first of all, our brain has one function and that is to keep us alive. We are programmed for survival. So when your brain detects a threat - and what I mean by that, it could be a real threat or a perceived threat. So a real threat is like a tiger is chasing you down the street or you're about to get into a car accident.
Lauren Rapaport: 3:56
Or a perceived threat is like I'm sitting here on this podcast, my heart's beating a little fast, I'm feeling a little nervous, or you're giving a presentation in front of lots of people. That's a perceived threat. So the brain doesn't know the difference between a real threat or a perceived threat. Okay, so the brain, it's always scanning the environment for a threat - real threat, perceived threat. So when the brain detects you're in danger, it sends a signal to your nervous system, the autonomic nervous system, and sends you into survival mode. So fight, flight, freeze, fawn. And then, when you go into survival mode, critical resources become unavailable, like your ability to think clearly or make critical decisions, or things like that.
Michelle Gauthier: 4:44
That makes so much sense, and I think what I'm hearing you say, and I'm thinking of an exact example that happened in my house yesterday morning. But when your brain goes into that survival mode, no matter what has caused it, we just lose the ability to think clearly. And it seems like what you're saying is our body focuses in on just the essentials. So it makes our heartbeat really fast so we can react. It makes us breathe faster so that we can keep ourselves safe, but we're not going to be doing a lot of thinking at that point.
Lauren Rapaport: 5:14
Exactly. You're not going to be solving any math problems when you're in survival. Okay.
Michelle Gauthier: 5:19
Okay, yeah, yesterday this is just a random example, but as you're talking about it, I thought, that's what happened yesterday to my daughter. She leaves for the bus. The bus comes at 7:41. She likes to walk out the door at about 7:40 and 45 seconds. She leaves herself seconds to get to the bus and one minute before she had to leave she realized she didn't know where her backpack was and we had had company for the weekend so we'd probably put it away somewhere. And she started being like, I can't find my backpack, I don't know where my backpack is. And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, you don't know where your backpack is. I said, okay, where do you think it could be? I mean, she couldn't think of anything, it was like she just freaked out. I think her brain projected right ahead to she was going to miss the bus, and then I was going to be mad at her and have to take her to school, etc.
Lauren Rapaport: 6:07
Yeah, so she outsourced her decision to you, who had a calm brain, and you were probably like it's right there.
Michelle Gauthier: 6:12
Yes, exactly. It was just such a funny thing that happened because she was completely calm and then when she realized she couldn't find it, it was like, I mean, she was even breathing hard and everything. So that's just such a good example of exactly what you said of the perceived threat that from the outside I didn't see as a threat, but her body definitely took it as a threat. That is a great example.
Lauren Rapaport: 6:32
And back to your original question, which was what's an example of when it's working for us? Because these states are designed to protect us. These are survival modes. We are programmed for survival. So an example of when we go into survival mode to protect us: so if you are, let's say, driving down the highway and you see in your rear view mirror a car swerves into your lane and you swerve to miss it and, to your point earlier, you feel your heart racing, you feel a surge of adrenaline, you feel that panic and you are now in fight or flight and you have swerved to miss that car and you've avoided an accident. So it is like you are in survival, but you've like avoided the threat, but you can feel your heart racing.
Michelle Gauthier: 7:25
Okay, that makes sense, and so it enabled me to just make that one quick move, but I'm not gonna be doing any critical thinking. And then, yeah, when that happens, I always feel like sweaty hands and my heart speeding fast for a while. After, like just even you giving me that example, I think I need to think I need to pull over after that and like take some deep breaths.
Lauren Rapaport: 7:45
Exactly and then, after a little while, you'll feel yourself returning back to a calm state. Your breathing returns and like if you take some deep breaths afterwards, that will help facilitate that returning to calm state. You can may even call like a loved one, like somebody who you know is going to calm you down and bring you back to a calm state.
Michelle Gauthier: 8:07
Okay, okay, that makes sense. And so when we're talking about this in terms of life coaching and the things that you and I do, so just so the audience knows, Lauren is a life coach too and she helps people who have Type 1 Diabetes and I know from you teaching me this, Lauren, that a lot of times when you have Type 1, which Lauren also does, that your body goes into one of those states when it's not a true emergency, like an almost car accident. So tell us what the difference is between. You always hear fight or flight, but I've heard you talk about fawn and what's the fourth one? Fight, flight, freeze, fawn. So will you just tell us what those are? It sounds like they're all survival states, but what's the difference between those?
Lauren Rapaport: 8:56
Yes, okay, I'll go into all four of those. A couple of things I want to state before I go into all four is that it's all about safety and feeling safe, and so the way you perceive the world is really how you feel. So if you see the world as dangerous, you're going to feel bad and you're going to feel stressed and you're going to feel overwhelmed. And if you perceive the world as safe and connected, you're going to feel calm and you're going to feel better and you're going to feel good.
Lauren Rapaport: 9:31
So in that example of the driving, so if you're just like driving down the highway of life and you're chronically stressed and overwhelmed and you have lots of things going on where you're stressed a lot, you're going to start to see lots of cars cutting you off. So you start to lose that perception. What's real, a real danger, versus a perceived danger? So if you have a demanding boss and you have a child that has a project and you have a husband that's demanding lots of you, it's going to feel like a car is swerving at you all the time. Okay, so you're going to start to live in fight or flight.
Michelle Gauthier: 10:13
Okay, I see, that makes so much sense. So if you have a disease that doesn't go away, like Type 1, it's possible for your body and your brain to feel like the world is dangerous and that you're kind of almost constantly in fight or flight or often in it.
Lauren Rapaport: 10:30
Yeah, so either you're living in fight or flight, and that's where the awareness - awareness - there's so much power in awareness, and so you can start to recognize when you're in fight or flight and you can bring yourself out of fight or flight and back into safety. So you're either living in fight or flight or, like Josie, the example of Josie, you go into it really easily. Yeah, so she perceived the danger of missing her bus. So it's like that hypervigilance of you're kind of on the edge of fight or flight.
Michelle Gauthier: 11:05
Yes, and this makes so much sense, I think, because obviously the audience that we're talking to today, maybe there are some people out there who have Type 1, but it's not going to be everybody. But I think everybody who's listening is feeling overwhelmed, or does often feel overwhelmed, and it feels like when you live in that high stress world of always - just, I mean, when I was there, it was like everything I was doing was kind of by the seat of my pants. I always had two seconds before I had the next thing going on. It was just kind of constant stress on top of stress, and so that could be another situation where you're just a hair trigger away from being in fight or flight at all times.
Lauren Rapaport: 11:45
Yes, that's exactly right, exactly right. So to go into all four, fight is what it sounds like, where you're ready to fight the threat. So it's marked with rage, irritation, anger, frustration. So if a boss is hypercritical, you, from your emotion, you may snap at your boss and react in a way you may not have likely wanted to, and afterwards you may regret snapping and you would have maybe liked to have paused, enacted the Michelle Pause.
Michelle Gauthier: 12:20
Yes, but you missed it. It's too late for that. You already told them to go screw off, or whatever you said.
Lauren Rapaport: 12:29
Exactly. Flight - flight is just what it sounds like You're fleeing the threat. So it's a little bit more obvious when it's like you're confronted by a bear in the woods and you flee the threat. But when we're talking overwhelm, this one's a little harder to wrap your brain around. So the way I like to say it's like putting a barrier or a buffer between you and what you're anxious about. So, for example, it's like an avoidance. So if you're scared of your feelings, it's putting a buffer between you and your feelings, whether it's overeating, over drinking, overworking, it's anything. So that's why flight it's kind of hard. If you think of it flight-wise, it's a little bit hard to wrap your brain around. So think of it like avoidance, a buffer, a wall between you and what you're avoiding.
Michelle Gauthier: 13:25
Yes, I like that. It makes more sense to call it avoid, but that doesn't fit in with all the Fs, does it? But I agree with you, that makes a lot more sense. Yes, okay, great, that makes sense. And I feel like, depending on the client, everyone who I work with has some version of avoidance.
Lauren Rapaport: 13:44
Yeah, this is my default. This is 100% my default is flight. And then freeze is again what it sounds like. It's the immobilized freeze state, so think deer in headlights. So if you know, I can't tell you how many times I've raised my hand on the call, gotten really nervous, and frozen. No words come out. Or the isolation tactic. A lot of my clients with Type 1 are really struggling with their emotions. So instead of talking to somebody, they isolate.
Michelle Gauthier: 14:25
Do you wake up already feeling exhausted by the day ahead? Do you find yourself always in a rush and losing patience with your kids and your spouse? If you constantly put everyone else before you, if you say yes to everything, if you're constantly stressed out because you never get to the bottom of your to-do list, you are stuck in the cycle of overwhelm. You might have tried getting more organized or even working longer hours, but it doesn't permanently solve that stressed and overwhelmed feeling. What if there was a solution that actually worked? I'm opening up coaching spots. I have two available to work with me personally in a one-on-one situation where I will teach you and walk through every tool with you that you need to know to really overcome overwhelm and achieve more by doing less. In this program, you will learn how to feel calm and just move through life, both work and home, with ease. You'll learn how to say no and put yourself first and start choosing what's best for you, maybe for the first time ever.
Michelle Gauthier: 15:22
So take the first step towards a calmer, more intentional life by scheduling your free consultation today. Click in the link in the show notes to reserve your spot before they fill up. Like I said, I have two spots open. Don't miss out on this opportunity to transform your life. Also, this is the last month to purchase one-on-one coaching at the current rates. Prices are going up 25% in June. So take us through. I feel like that's such a relatable one, the one where you said you're on this call, you have a question, you raise your hand, you obviously know what the question is, and then you get called on, and then what happens? Will you just walk us through it one more time so we can understand exactly what happens then?
Lauren Rapaport: 16:07
So for me, I've raised my hand on a call where there's over 100 people on the Zoom. I remember seeing the faces on the Zoom as like the threat. I feel nervous, my heart is racing. I'm so nervous and I go to talk and then I just freeze and you just have no words, no words.
Michelle Gauthier: 16:29
The question is completely gone from your head because your brain has said we're in danger, we can't think about what we were going to ask, we just have to stay safe.
Lauren Rapaport: 16:38
Yes, and then my critical thinking is just offline, yep.
Michelle Gauthier: 16:42
Yep, I feel like this is so common, especially at the beginning of a presentation or anytime you're doing something where you feel uncomfortable. I feel like I can easily get into that where the words are just gone for a minute.
Lauren Rapaport: 17:02
Another example here is, I mean, you hear about sexual assault victims who don't fight back. They're in complete freeze.
Michelle Gauthier: 17:08
Yeah, they just can't, don't have, like you said, all the thinking is offline and they're just trying to survive. Yeah, that makes so much sense.
Lauren Rapaport: 17:17
Or animals who play dead. It's a complete freeze response. Everything is about safety. This is a response. You are in danger and this is a biological response to stay alive. It's how your body thinks it's going to stay alive. Based on the trigger and based on how your body feels it is going to save itself.
Michelle Gauthier: 17:48
Yeah, and I think your point is so good that sometimes it *has* to do that. Maybe in that situation that is a way to survive. And in the car accident, it is a way to survive. If you're going to miss the bus, it's not
Lauren Rapaport: 18:00
But it feels it in the moment. Right, her body felt that in the moment. It felt like her death in the moment.
Michelle Gauthier: 18:03
Yeah, and that's interesting to me, that our brain can't tell the difference.
Lauren Rapaport: 18:12
Fawn. So fawn is the people-pleasing survival response, so you appease the threat in the moment. So it's an inability to say no or telling your boss whatever he wants to hear, just because you feel uncomfortable or not safe. It's always apologizing, not saying how you really feel, putting other people's needs before your own. There was a reel I saw on Instagram with male talk show hosts that had Britney Spears, Victoria Beckham on and they were commenting on their physical bodies and they were all like, hey, thanks, it was complete fawning.
Michelle Gauthier: 18:53
Yes, oh my gosh, I saw that too. I was like what the heck? That wasn't that long ago, although I guess it was. But yeah, seriously. Well, I feel like people pleasing is something that we talk about a lot here on this podcast and that a lot of people suffer from, and it's good to know that that is also a way to hide, to stay safe. Okay. So is there a way to get out of each one of these states, or are there ways that you could use for any of them?
Lauren Rapaport: 19:24
Yes, and I'm just gonna talk high level. I mean, we could do a whole podcast on each of these specifically, but when we get stuck in these states, that's really what what's called, you know, nervous system dysregulation. You may again, this has become a very big topic. That's what you hear the way to regulate your nervous system. I'm just going to talk very simply and broadly but the three kind of simple things you can do. And one is you know, connect, move, and breathe. Those are kind of the three basic things, okay. And connect is connect with a loved one. Connect with a loved one, connect with nature, so if there's like a specifically a loved one that makes you feel safe, like we all have that person that like like right with that car accident, if you pulled over, like who's that first person you're going to call, right? Connect with a loved one, or connect with a support group.
Lauren Rapaport: 20:27
Or you know if, if, if you're, especially if you're in that freeze state, if you're isolating and it feels too hard to call somebody, just go to a support group or volunteer or just anytime you can get out with other people it's called co-regulation. Or if that even feels too hard, just put your feet in the grass or in the sand, connect with nature.
Michelle Gauthier: 20:50
Connecting with nature. So just something besides yourself. Yes, yes, okay, okay, that's a good one, yep.
Lauren Rapaport: 20:57
Movement. So take a walk, just simple, get outside. Take a walk outside, dancing, shake it off. Just movement is magic for your nervous system, okay. And then the third is breathing. So in that car example, just like deep breaths, really deep breaths, like longer on the exhale, especially if you're like activated in fight or flight, like breath in and then longer on the exhale.
Michelle Gauthier: 21:26
Okay, okay, that's so great, it's like it feels so simple to do that. I think for me, the big aha and everything that you've taught me about this is, okay, those three things are very simple and I can totally do those. But for me, what I needed to learn is identifying that I was in that response state. Like, okay, I see what's happening, I'm in flight or I'm in fawn or whatever, and that's what's happening right now, and so I do want to get myself out, so then I can do breathing or whatever it is. But it's just so helpful to know that our brain is always trying to keep us safe - sometimes overly so - and that you just have to recognize that it's happening and then use one of those techniques to get yourself out of it.
Lauren Rapaport: 22:11
Absolutely. And again, there's so much power in awareness and I think the most important thing is to start paying attention, just start trying to connect with yourself and knowing that whether you're in fight versus flight is really not as important as just connecting with yourself and understanding: where's your energy? Like fight or flight, even if you lump them together, is just excess energy. Can I not stop moving my legs? Do I feel like I have this extra energy or I feel like I want to crawl out of my skin? That's activated. That's fight or flight.
Lauren Rapaport: 22:48
Am I sort of like low energy? Do I feel like I want to isolate? Do I feel kind of detached? That's freeze. Just keep it simple and just try to just recognize. And then, what do I feel like I need right now? Because I don't know if you remember this, Michelle, but you and I, when I was in, we called it obsessive mode, and that's when I was like overworking, if I felt stressed about something, I would overwork. And then we, we figured out a process that helped me, which was to go for a walk and listen to Garth Brooks. Yep, and little did we know. We identified flight without realizing it, and we identified a process to regulate my nervous system way before we knew anything about the nervous system.
Michelle Gauthier: 23:29
Yep, and I think there are probably several people right now shaking their heads yes, on that overworking comment, because when we start to feel panicked, we overachiever types are like, I just need to do more. If I work harder, then I'll feel better. But then when that doesn't make you feel better, and especially if you're in an activated state like that, you're not even going to get anything done that's useful.
Lauren Rapaport: 23:53
Right? Because what I didn't realize, that when I was in flight, I barely had my logical thinking available to me. Yeah, so I was spinning, and so what actually helps is taking breaks, lots of breaks, and going for a walk and listening to my favorite artist.
Michelle Gauthier: 24:09
Yeah, exactly. So the answer is Garth Brooks. That's essentially what you're here to tell us on this podcast.
Lauren Rapaport: 24:15
Always. Every time.
Michelle Gauthier: 24:17
You know I love Garth too. Yes, okay, thank you. So thank you so much for just making that simple. I feel like it makes so much sense, it's easy to remember, it's easy to understand. Thank you so much. That was great. I have my two final questions to ask you that I ask every guest on the podcast, but before I do I wanted to make sure is there anything else that I haven't asked you that you want to share with us?
Lauren Rapaport: 24:43
The only two things are just to remember it's all about safety. So, like with the Josie example, is cues of safety to yourself are really important, meaning like so, even though in that moment - so she was activated in that moment. So I think a good thing for her would be just like deep breaths she could have taken in that moment. She could just to remind herself to breathe, remind herself that she wasn't in danger, right, like to remember that the car was not swerving at her, she was not about to get to a car accident, and to remind her that she wasn't actually in danger, like nothing was happening to her.
Michelle Gauthier: 25:29
Okay, so we can remind ourselves of that too. I'm not actually in danger. My body thought I was in danger, but I'm not actually in danger. For me, a good example would be if I thought I did something wrong, if I made a mistake somewhere, that my body would activate like that and I would have to say we're not actually in danger. You just perceived that you did something wrong. And even if you did, it's okay, calm down Michelle's brain.
Lauren Rapaport: 25:57
Yeah, so you can choose safety to yourself, and warmth and kindness, and this work really provides you with the why like why this is happening, that this is happening at a biological level and it really takes the shame and the judgment away because it's happening at a biological level.
Michelle Gauthier: 26:17
Yeah, I love that. So it's not blamey, like why does my body keep doing this? It's like this is just how we're programmed, but you can get yourself out of it, yeah, okay. So here are my two questions for you. What is something that you do to make yourself feel more calm when you're overwhelmed?
Lauren Rapaport: 26:35
Okay, so it's a little spin off, overwhelmed. For me, it's when I'm overwhelmed, slash, activated, slash, restless, slash, can't sleep, and it's called Legs Up Against the Wall and it's like my body makes an L-shaped, an L-shape, and I think that you're going to put a link in the show notes and my legs are up against the wall, my back is on the floor and I'm making an L-shape. Does that make sense?
Michelle Gauthier: 27:09
Yes, yes. I'm picturing it.
Lauren Rapaport: 27:10
Okay, and it's the most magic position.
Michelle Gauthier: 27:17
So like your butt is against the wall, in the corner sort of between the wall and the floor, and then your legs are up, so your feet are the highest part, and then your head is like laying down as the bottom of the L.
Lauren Rapaport: 27:30
Yes, laying down as the bottom of the L. I used to get restless leg. It's when I'm activated, like nervous system activated when I can't sleep In the middle of the night. If I can't sleep, I'll get out of my bed on the floor, do this position for like a few seconds. It doesn't even take that long. I get back in bed and I go to sleep. It is a magic position.
Michelle Gauthier: 27:48
That is so amazing. Okay, that is wonderful. And it checks all of the other things that you've said to us too. When you're doing that, you're breathing and you're connecting with yourself. Okay, that's awesome. I love that. Yes, I will put a link to that. Okay, legs up against the wall. Legs up against the wall, got it? Okay, I'll put it in there. Okay, and then what is something you consistently do that allows you to do less or save time?
Lauren Rapaport: 28:17
Okay, I use something called constraint, which basically is a rule or a decision you make ahead of time. So, for example, and you can do this - this example I decided for the year, but you could also make this every day or on a day or a given week. So, for example, I'm somebody who I love to doubt myself. I don't love to. My brain likes to doubt myself. It's so fun to doubt myself, so fun to doubt yourself likes to doubt myself. My brain loves to tell me I'll be a better coach if I get this certification, or I'll be a better coach if I learn this. And so I decided for 2024, no certifications, no training courses. It's my year of massive action. So I decided for 2024, take that off the table. So that is my constraint for 2024.
Michelle Gauthier: 29:14
Okay, and how does that save you time? How has it saved you time so far?
Lauren Rapaport: 29:18
It saved me so much time, because anytime I go or I see an ad for a training course or I decide, oh, I want to do this training course, I say nope, no training for 2024. It saved me so much time of research and decisions.
Michelle Gauthier: 29:35
Yeah, and actually doing it Actually doing it of course.
Michelle Gauthier: 29:39
Yeah, how much time that would take. I have the same thing with books. If I'm listening to a podcast and they mention a book, or I hear another coach is reading a book, I'm like, oh, I need to read that. And I used to just buy them. And then I ended up having all these books that I hadn't read. So now I just put them on a list and then when I get to the point where I'm like, oh, I need a new book, I will get that, but otherwise it's just like it's hard to stop learning. There's so much fun stuff to learn. So, yeah, you've got to have constraint for it. Okay, that's awesome. All right, thank you so much. So we will link in the show notes exactly what you showed us about the legs up against the wall. We'll put your website out there. So if we want to find out more about the nervous system, do you have any other resources that we could check out?
Lauren Rapaport: 30:28
Yes, I taught. I gave a free class on the nervous system. It's a little specific to Yype 1 diabetes, but just in my example. So I have a free class on my website around the nervous system.
Michelle Gauthier: 30:40
Okay, okay, wonderful, so we will link that as well. Thank you so much, Lauren. It's always so much fun to have you on. Thanks so much. Thank you for listening to the Overwhelmed Working Woman podcast. If you want to learn more about my work, head over to my website at michellegauthier.com. See you next week.
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